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Ummm … after you read my take. Of course.
A free society and covert activity: they contradict one another by their very natures and America is having a dialog regarding it right now.
How can you stop hostile forces and plots from attacking innocent people and simultaneously maintain personal freedom? Well, I think part of the answer is that freedom in a free society is limited regardless of the fantasies some believers like to bring to the table. I am not free to attack another citizen without consequence, nor am I free to say something about another that causes them danger or harm in many situations. At the same time, my government is not given free license to search my house without cause or confiscate my property without similar cause as approved by the courts.
Our Constitution and court system is our national effort to resolve these freedoms and it was written in the midst of many freedoms denied – often directly and specifically by the men who wrote it – and the future will continually evolve understandings of inappropriately denied freedoms. It is an imperfect document developed by imperfect people or there would be no amendments necessary. Ever. But, imperfect though it is, it is really pretty damn good!
I put these statements in the public domain as soon as I post this blog entry. It would be naïve of me to think that individuals would have the freedom, unlimited, to read it from anywhere at any time and that my government would not. And not just my government, but the governments of both allies and enemies. On top of that, it is certain that they will not tell me that they have looked at or examined or archived it. I have no doubt that J. Edgar Hoover and his crew created a dossier on me and my friends during the late 60’s and early 70’s. I’m sure those dossiers would have been juicier if they could have hovered small drones recording information through the window at some of our parties!
Contrary to some of my fellow citizens and my younger self, I don’t see this as particularly nefarious (although that is subject to change as regimes come into power and potential abuses increase). I don’t feel the need to arm myself to keep the government from taking over my home or my life. Neither does it particularly bother me that we have been spying on our friends. I expect and hope that they are still spying on us like they always have and are just putting out faux outrage to mollify their constituencies.
To be totally honest, at this stage of human development, I think that nations with good spy networks letting them know what is going on with one another more fully mutually guarantee that they are not surprised by or misgauging a situation leading to harm.
I am less blasé about dirty tricks and at no point do I forfeit my right of protest over activities I see crossing the line and simply invading privacy. By personal education, votes, protests and discussions with my fellow citizens, I try to resist violations.
How do you see it, oh national and international audience?
Absolutely, our country has problems, but it is the best nation in the world! No other country has the same freedoms, the same opportunities, and the same quality of life!
ReplyDeleteYour country "has problems"? As understatements go I hereby declare you an honorary Englander. They too underplay the weather, particularly when it's raining.
DeleteOne point, Delirious, and forgetting the events of the last two weeks: How can anyone but anyone claim for any nation to be the "best"? That statement is so American it's toe-curlingly embarrassing.
As to your second sentence, I am sorry but that makes me snort with derision. But then, as someone pointed out so kindly to me the other day, there are Americans who don't even know the capital of France.
In despair,
U
@Delirious
ReplyDeleteWell, some of our other readers may not see us this way. That is fine, because we are what we are and I have every intention of addressing that - in my own way - in my next post. I was going to do it for the Fourth, but I ended up celebrating the holiday too long yesterday with some great friends.
@Ursula
ReplyDeleteThat response I find unnecessarily rude.
If you find it 'rude', so be it, Old Foss. I will not apologize for what I said because it's how I see it and there is no point glossing over cracks.
DeleteAs to your post - it's been exercising me in as much as I find it not easy to answer. So glad I didn't send my initial response since I made allusions to you as the ultimate diplomat. You might have found that rude too.
Let's compromise: If you'd rather I didn't comment on your original post then I won't. Do let me know.
U
@Ursula
ReplyDeleteNot the comment on the post, the disparaging comment toward Delirious is what I objected to. She walks the pathways of America and she has every right to feeling as she does without disparagement. My take, as I plan to present, is that the idea of comparison of countries as one being better than another is not necessary, but my take is not that she is wrong to feel so. Neither is your feeling about your own country or countries that you call home worthy of derision.
My take is that people from foreign soil make far too many authoritative judgments of other cultures that they do not experience directly by living them from the street level. It does not matter how many articles, even perceptive articles, that I may read about any other nation, be it Britain, Italy, Ireland, India or anywhere else, I may form an opinion, even an educated opinion, but I can never know the true experience and meaning of that nation and that culture without being a living, breathing, daily experiencing and participating part of it. That is the reason I do not comment with any authority on other bloggers' views of their own nations, for I can never know the nuance and the interplay like they can. Never.
My only problem with the US of A (garnered on my one and only short visit), was the size of food portions in restaurants. They were enormous and I noticed that nobody ever cleared their plates - what a waste of food.
ReplyDelete@Ursula,
ReplyDeleteWhen you are rude in a comment, it shows more about who you are than the person you’re trying to make look bad. Remember, etiquette everywhere is about respect, politeness, integrity, honesty and trust.
Oh, Grannymar, you really do have it in for me, don't you?
ReplyDeleteI wasn't trying to make Delirious look bad. I hold Delirious in esteem and she knows it. All I did was putting a valid view. And the Paris example was given to me by, guess who, yes, an American. Straight from the horse's mouth. Someone who despairs that his fellow Americans rarely look beyond their own boundaries.
Also, Delirious being a grown woman, I am sure she can answer me, if so inclined, herself.
You and your etiquette, Grannymar. Yes, etiquette. Let's remember: Some countries top the heads of their boiled eggs, others peel them. Main thing to remember where you are at any one time.
And I quite agree with you. What we say says a lot about us.
I cherish and abide by "Integrity, honesty and trust". I am integer and honest. And I TRUST that people take me in good faith. Politeness I take for granted. Respect? Has to be earned.
U
Most Brits or for that matter other people from other countries will not know about Paris or for that matter Peking or Mumbai. That lack of awareness does not make them any less fond of their own countries. In the forums that you and I participate, we have had the privilege of universal education and that is all the difference. I have traveled widely all over the world, and this is one truth that was driven to me by observation and talking to the ordinary man on the street.
DeleteJust ten kilometers as the crow flies from home there are villagers who have not been to this city ever, leave alone Mumbai or our nation's capital. But I have learnt some very valuable lessons from their native intelligence. They are no less fond of their country and its culture, history and heritage than I am.
For Delirious living away from home and in China of all places, as you have rightly pointed out in her post, is homesick and there is no place like home for that kind of separation.
Statecraft of Machiavelli's Prince, Kautilya's Arthashastra, China's Xu Guangqi's treatise on state craft etc, point to one fundamental truth. You cannot rule a nation state without internal spies. Leaving aside paranoia, a ruler is tolerated as long as he provides some security for his citizens. For freedom to exist, there must be security. Freedom cannot be an abstract concept. For true freedom to be and freedom from fear, citizens must be willing to compromise on some privacy.
ReplyDeleteI am willing to compromise as I have nothing to hide.
If you would like to explore the concepts of freedom from and freedom to further, you can do no better than read Erich Fromm's The Fear Of Freedom and Man For Himself.
I find no contradiction whatsoever between the two concepts. They are not mutually exclusive. You cannot have the yin without the yang.
Hmmmm - sorry all - I find U's comment intentionally over-the-top and kinda funny. It's not what I would call rude - more an attempt to elicit responses and debate. I might have taken a different approach -
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk
Will's speech aside, there're really only a couple of places I'd consider living other than here if forced to leave (although I'd really rather be somewhere else but Texas)
I'm with ya all the way, D.
ReplyDeleteHmm, you said something so American another found it toe-curling embarrassing.
Then you said something else that made this person snort with derision.
Still, this person claims to hold you in esteem.
Now that is a contradiction.
blessings to you and the family ~ maxi
"This person" has a name, Maxi: It's Ursula. Instead of just brushing aside what I said why not think about it?
DeleteBlessings,
U
@Grannymar
ReplyDeleteI agree about the food portions, GM. The problem has grown over the past few decades and part of it may be fallout from the "Supersize Me" phenomenon and fast food places. It is a shame at multiple levels, health, environment and waste being just a few.
@Rummuser
ReplyDeleteI think your comment about fondness for your own country is well said and well taken. Fondness for your own country I believe to be a positive.
@Rummuser
ReplyDeleteThe nation must have intelligence gathering. It is always in conflict with privacy for some, but it is a necessity nonetheless.
@shackman
ReplyDeleteBesides civility, what we have lost in this process is the original intent and messages of the post itself. I have to think that over-the-top behavior is designed to draw attention to oneself. If not designed to do so, at least the outcome becomes that.
@shackman
ReplyDeleteSecond response to your comment as regards Texas: one of the realizations anyone who understands America must come to is that we are more a collection of what the rest of the world under many circumstances would see as nations. This country is so varied in terrain, weather, culture and attitude as one traverses it, there is no easy way to authoritatively define what an American is. We offer something for anyone to hate if that is their inclination, LOL. And, we offer on the other hand something for anyone to love if they wish.
You got that right in spades Fos....something many including a Americans forget - I'd say more to love than hate no matter how you cut it
DeleteYou can say the same thing about India. The USA at least has, at least till recently, one language in common. India has 30 languages that are spoken by more than a million native speakers each, 122 by more than 10,000 each.
DeleteAmen to that Shackman.
Delete@Maxi
ReplyDeleteIt is a debate about respect and civility here that predates your joining our group.
@shackman
ReplyDeleteI have always been American and I wouldn't want to be anything else. I'd hope most people in their countries would feel that way. I love it here.
@Rummuser
ReplyDeleteThat mix of languages I find to be absolutely amazing! Some day, I must see your nation. Until then, I sit at your feet to learn of it.